EVE Search - Thread about cloaky threads

All Channels

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Thread about cloaky threads

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 87	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:09:00 - [1] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Jacid wrote: True but the fact that so many threads existist says that their is an issue and has been yet really hasn't been acted on or even discuessed. In my long time watching these the ads I haven't really seen anything about it from ccp on ideas / solutions.. I guess the question is.. is the issue something of importance to other people or is it just another captains quarter's no it doesn't, its just telling of the fact that most people hate psychological warfare. There is more to the cloak issue than just AFK camping though. There is an issue with cloaking. It's not a balanced mechanic. Dont get me wrong. Cloaking is great, but it's by far one of the safest ways to fly in this game. Unless there is pilot error, there is little chance a cloaky can be engaged on if he/she doesnt wish to engage in a fight.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 87	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:01:00 - [2] - Quote Jack Carrigan wrote: First off, cloaking is very balanced. With the way local is now, you know they are there, most not where they are. They can't interact with anything while cloaked, and must decloak to directly affect anyone. Second, give me your stuff/biomass. Finally, inb4lock. Yes. It's so balanced that there are hundreds of pages of people talking about how it's not. It's one of the most talked about items on the forums.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 87	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:07:00 - [3] - Quote Of course. Why discuss a topic that people want to talk about. Let's push the topic over to a threat that's so off topic that no one reads it anymore. Guess that is an effective way of deflecting the topic.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 87	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:36:00 - [4] - Quote I disagree. Really it doesnt seem that anything gets discussed. Most of the time the thread goes. "I dont like cloak" "Youre a newb. Go away. We need tears, deal with it." "Rage Rage Rage" Topic locked. The problem is that now that cloak is in the game and has been for years. It has both useful uses and severe abuses. For every balanced example, there are just as many unbalanced ones. Almost every character in the game uses cloak in some form. It is one the largest safety nets in the game. I am not a fan of nerfing cloak, but having been on both sides of it. Cloaking is by far one of the easiest things in the game. Topic is about if there is really an issue with cloaking or if its just a mental thing. Personally I think there is an issue, though I dont have any idea how to effectively change it.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 09:47:00 - [5] - Quote Samillian wrote: Jacid wrote: By all clockly threads being rule 17nd is this ccps way of saying they aren't willing to deal with an important issue. I don't see it as being unwilling to discuss an issue but rather that to CCP this is very probably and rightly a non-issue. That's just an assumption though. It's just as plausible to say that CCP isn't commenting cause they have no idea how to fix the issue.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 10:36:00 - [6] - Quote Just a couple examples of things in game. Pro's. - Bomber fleets need to be cloaked. That is how the operate. Without it they are useless. Same with recon ships. - AFK Cloak camping. Though annoying. It serves a purpose for both intel and to stop system use. - General travel. Cloaking makes this far easier. Con's - AFK Camping. Though an accepted tactic by CCP it does frustrate many players, as there is no counter. Either risk operating in the system OR move to another system. There is no way to eject the stealth player from the system. - Ship hiding. I can literally have billions of isk worth of ships floating in space and no one would ever know. I can have a rorq on grid in a belt. As soon as there is a threat, I simply cloak the ship. Unless you witnessed the ship cloaking, you would have no idea where it was. - The ultimate safety net. I can be chased by 100's of ships. As long as I make it past the gate camp, there is no possible way a cloak can be found in system. The cloak pilot has 1 challenge and that is the gate. However if I am a cloak pilot and I see the threat as being too high. I can just go afk and wait or just log off. These are just a few examples. There are plenty more. I dont like the idea of nerfing cloak, however I do feel its necessary. My suggestion has always been that of a stealth hunting frigate. I personally would be ok with the removal of local from low and null sec, but changing D scan to allow all ships to be seen, even cloaked. However cloaked ships only showing a pilots name. Thus the player has to be more active about using D scan while operating, in order to be safe. Included in that would be a stealth hunting ship. The rough concept for the ship would be this. Small frig. Minimal offenses, high defense such as speed, tank, light tackle. How it would hunt. Use D Scan. Any ship that shows up as just a pilot name would be a stealth craft. With a skill like "Cloak Detection" or something, you could lock onto the disruption in space the cloak creates and this would give you a heading that would be displayed as an arrow in your tactical overview. This would also give you a basic distance, being more accurate with skill training. The goal would not be to land directly on the cloak player but to put you on grid with them. Once on grid, you have to actively hunt for the player using the arrow in your tactical overview. Once within 50KM you could see the ship, but still in a cloaked way, so locking on would be impossible. At 25km you could employ a type of EM burst that would decloak both ships and thus combat could begin. This is just a rough idea. Certain aspects are tricky. Like how can you get a ship into warp without having a specific endpoint. This is the idea I have always personally thought would work best. I have seen the same concept work well in other sandbox games.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 11:44:00 - [7] - Quote "if you really want him he's not safe sure you have to put some time in but there are only so many ways to get out of a system." So I have to wait for him to come to me? What are the likely chances that will happen? I can spend hours waiting while the player is logged off and never see him. Eventually he will log in and leave. Again I see this as the ultimate safety net. Decloak and log off. Go eat dinner, come back. Leave system as I wish cause its now empty. I mean if you are going to use this argument that I should spent more time, then it should apply to the people complaining about ships being docked up. It's the same type of safety, though a station requires a lot more effort. Shouldn't your fleet just invest more time in hopes that someone might just unknowningly undock to their death?
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 12:11:00 - [8] - Quote You seem to misunderstand completely. Though I agree that cloak is unbalanced. I dont quiver in fear of some cloaky. So feel free to drop the passive aggressiveness. To answer your point. If I own sov in a system, Why should I allow a squatter to just sit in space that I either have taken or I rent? From an intel point of view, why should I let a character gather free intel on what I am doing in my systems. At the moment the only option is to either move systems or stop operations if I wish to keep my operations hidden. General AFK cloaking isn't really an issue unless that player shows that they plan on being aggressive. Then his aggressive nature reinforces the idea that I wish to eject them from the system. The point on cloaked ships floating in space was more along the lines for the PVP players. I can easily be farming a belt with a rorq on grid. I can just cloak that ship up and wait for you to pass while I sit safely in space. Nothing you can do about it. If anything you would think that PVPers would wish to resolve this issue. Yes you can, though I can still scan you down, you arent hidden and I can force you to keep moving otherwise you are dead. None of these things can be done to a cloaky.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:20:00 - [9] - Quote Teckos. You did notice that I listed AFK camping as a PRO as well, right? It does have it's purposes and it's abuses.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:30:00 - [10] - Quote CCP also thought that jump range was fine too. We see they have changed their mind.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:46:00 - [11] - Quote Daichi Why are you adverse to the idea of changing cloak? If it brings about more PVP, wouldn't that be good? That applies to everyone really that feels that this topic is talked to death? Why is the argument to not change anything. Any change to cloak would result in more PVP. So many topics about how people camp in stations and pos, and so many wanting timers for people to be kicked out of station. Yet it's the exact same thing with trying to fight a cloak in system. You just can't do it. My other example of how I can just hide a Rorq when I dont want to fight. This again avoids PVP. Wouldnt changes to increase PVP be a benefit?
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 89	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:51:00 - [12] - Quote Mag's wrote: Reported for redundancy. I see the usual circle of arguments are on going. As yet, the anto cloak brigade have failed to show an issue. Other than 'I can see him in local, he scares me.' Of course you would see it that way Mags. Although that ignores the three reasons that I already brought up here in the thread, two of those not being afk cloak camping. Easiest way to avoid the topic is to close it I guess.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:00:00 - [13] - Quote Mag's wrote: Behr Oroo wrote: Daichi Why are you adverse to the idea of changing cloak? If it brings about more PVP, wouldn't that be good? That applies to everyone really that feels that this topic is talked to death? Why is the argument to not change anything. Any change to cloak would result in more PVP. So many topics about how people camp in stations and pos, and so many wanting timers for people to be kicked out of station. Yet it's the exact same thing with trying to fight a cloak in system. You just can't do it. My other example of how I can just hide a Rorq when I dont want to fight. This again avoids PVP. Wouldnt changes to increase PVP be a benefit? Because you like every other complainer, looks at cloaks only. If you had your way, null would be even safer than it already is. It's currently balanced, deal with it. So balanced that CCP is completely upending it with the change to jump drives.....
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:09:00 - [14] - Quote You are correct. I misread the statement. I thought it read that "Null was balanced." The jump change was to show that CCP believed it wasnt balanced.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:15:00 - [15] - Quote I personally wont back down from the idea that cloak is unbalanced. There are far too many examples of how its not balanced, even if you want to say that they arent examples. Yes cloak serves a purpose but much like how CCP is currently making major changes to Null to break up renter alliances and to solve the issue with stagnation. It stands to read that cloak should be looked at as well. It can too easily be abused. I can understand why people fight against it. It takes away from their fun by suddenly adding a challenge to what was once a rather safe practice. I have never once advocated for null to be safe. I have always looked for a way to fight and engage cloakies. I dont want them gone. I want to find an kill them. This unfortunately ruffles the feathers of the cloakies that so enjoy hiding behind them. Several people have made suggestions on how to change cloaks or add cloak hunting to the game. Many of them are good ideas.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:16:00 - [16] - Quote Zifrian wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: No they post with more rationale. Rather than the people who open these threads who think its unfair for a player to do little more than sit in local. No one was ever killed by a cloaked afk player. Sitting afk in space is fine. Cloaking is fine. CCP have made their position known. OP just needs to stop being a null bear and deal with the problem using any of the myriad of ways that have been presented in these threads. Or he can go back to hi-sec where he probably belongs anyways. Just because you agree with someone, doesn't mean it has more rationale for everyone. And I not going to agur with you about cloaking, since that's off topic. If CCP has made their position known, please provide a link or your statement is meaningless. CCP has said that cloak was working as intended but it was a while ago. However that doesnt mean that people cant advocate for a change and given the major changes going in game. This is a good time to discuss them.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:16:00 - [17] - Quote "No, you want easy kills to pad your killboard. There are already several methods to catch cloaky ships as the come into system. Use any number of them." Thank you for validating this thread and every one before it in regards to cloaking. If you feel that a change to cloak would suddenly make you an easy target, its going to bias everything you have to say. You can make all the points you want, but ultimately this statement is how you feel. Adding a way to hunt cloakies shatters your safety net. You suddenly have to fight to survive. However you ask miners to do this all the time.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 18:11:00 - [18] - Quote Oh I am done. I got my answer from Daichi. It validates what I have been saying for a while in regards to why the PVPers constantly fight against cloak changes. It takes away their safety net. Though in answering that, it shows why the cloaky threads get closed. They often degrade to just name calling, passive aggressiveness, and much like what happened here. They stray off topic.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 90	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:42:00 - [19] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Behr Oroo wrote: Oh I am done. I got my answer from Daichi. It validates what I have been saying for a while in regards to why the PVPers constantly fight against cloak changes. It takes away their safety net. Though in answering that, it shows why the cloaky threads get closed. They often degrade to just name calling, passive aggressiveness, and much like what happened here. They stray off topic. Speaking of straying off topic, answer me two questions. When do the nerfs stop? When you have gotten everything you want nerfed, and are finally happy with your game, what about the next guy who wants to nerf how you play your game? Catch me in game. We can discuss it. Though go back to my post about the addition of a hunting frig. Read that and see that I suggested a complete removal of local, and replaced ship detection with D Scan Then actual hunting done through the tactical overview. These two things would work with the addition of the ship. Look I live in null and I love null space. Yes I am an industrial player, no I dont play WoW. I started out playing Shadowbane, which is almost identical to Eve but in a Fantasy setting. These changes I am suggestion are not cause of some fear of cloak or anything. I honestly see cloak as unbalanced. I find being in a cloaked ship to be insanely safe and basically easy mode. Shadowbane had a very well balanced system for stealth characters. I have tried to use its basis for the suggestions I have made about cloaking. If nothing ever changes, I dont honestly care but that doesnt mean that I am going to half heartily argue my stance. If someone makes a suggestion that changes my play style, I will consider it and if it helps the game then more than likely I will go with it. Might not like it but change happens.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 92	Posted - 2014.10.13 11:45:00 - [20] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: To aske Mag's question again: Exactly how do you know there is a guy cloaked in system? Answer that please Behr? Well....does anyone on the anti-cloak side have the balls to even attempt to answer this question? Sure, I'll bite. The answer is local. If you look at my suggests on the changes to cloak, I have always included the removal of local, in exchange for cloak hunting
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 92	Posted - 2014.10.13 17:14:00 - [21] - Quote OK so after reading the last few posts and others, it's pretty clear that no amount of discussion will lead you to understand anything from my point of view. Couple examples as to why people get frustrated and topics about cloak get locked. They often degrade to petty arguing. 1. "That's great, but your suggestion is: 1. Probably not balanced." - All this has done is show that you arent interested in looking as suggestions. Either from burn out or whatever, however you expect other people to read what you put up. Just in this example, my suggestion is in this exact thread and is not all that long, yet you didn't take the time to read it. I am sure your excuse is that "it's probably like all the others" and you dont need to read it. 2. "Let me also add I think cloaking/local are balanced; just not balanced very well." - To me this makes little sense. Regardless of what the so called understanding of "balance" we all know what the implication of it is. Effective game play for both sides. Something that is balanced, yet unbalanced is ultimately unbalanced. 3. Adjustments to cloak is just a way to pad kill boards with easy kills, as stated a couple pages back - This in itself is the underlying mentality of the PVPers. As it stands now. Cloak is a huge safety net. Any changes to it would take away part of that safety. I personally feel this safety net takes away from the game of Eve by providing the safety net that exists now and leaves people in a stalemate. And this isn't just afk cloaky camping. I personally dont put much thought into that anymore. A quick look at killboards can tell you if a camper is there to kill or just be annoying. No one complains about this though, and it provides far more info than local. Look I do understand what you are saying. Local does give away your existence in system however that is just one variable. It is balanced in the regard that I know you are there and you know I am there. That part is balanced. However you can engage on me and I am unable to do anything but defend myself. Now I dont see this as bad. Stealth ships need to be able to have the element of surprise, however they dont need to have ultimate safety anywhere they go. Your argument also is heavily biased against ratters and renters. This leads to threads like this being closed as well as it again degrades down to name calling again. Myself, I can see what you are saying and I respect it. I just disagree with it. Try putting yourself in the seat of an industrial player and see what they are saying. Most of the stuff I have suggested, excluding my first poorly thought out ideas, have tried to look at both sides to increase the enjoyment of game play. Congrats on being dedicated to your point of view. That's fine. Little less passive aggressiveness in the posts might help. I think at this point we just have to agree to disagree.
Behr Oroo The Circus Corp Intrepid Crossing 92	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:08:00 - [22] - Quote You win Teckos. I am out. You take this topic far too personal. At least Mags and Nikk make sense. Though I dont always agree with those two, they make solid points and discuss the topic well. The post above by Nikk is something I completely agree with in regards to how CCP views cloak. When it comes to cloak. I know what I would like to see and I think its a solid approach. I will continue to advocate my stance. However, like I have said many times already. If it doesnt happen, it's not a big deal but that doesnt mean I will half heartily argue my stance. Peace, brother.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.